petermccue |
Posted: 26 Feb 2005, 20:53:22
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Posts: 13
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Location: Central IL--USA
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I'm trying to research the consist
of the mid-1950s Super Chief prior to the combination with the El
Capitan. I'm probably new enough at finding information that I'm
looking in all the wrong places. I've tried the Sante Fe Railroad
Historical Society and Modeling Society web site, but couldn't find
anything there. I haven't been able to find what I want to know
anywhere else, so I'm asking for help. I recently found a
Walthers model of the observation car, and the box shows two
F-7A&B units (total of 4 F-7s), a Budd 73' baggage car, a Budd
63' RPO, a Budd "Pine" series 10-6 sleeper, a P-S Pleasure Dome, a
P-S 36-seat Diner, a P-S 29-seat Dormitory-Lounge, a P-S 4-4-2
Sleeper, and a P-S "Vista" Series Observation-Lounge. Does anyone
know if that is the correct consist for that era? I would think
there would be at least another sleeper or two, and possibly another
diner, but I can't find that information. Was another F-7B added for
the mountain areas? If engine(s) and/or cars were added or deleted
enroute from Chicago to Los Angeles, where were the places this was
done? I would think (trying to be logical?) extra cars might be
added around major holidays such as Christmas. Thanks for the
help. Pete |
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richardy |
Posted: 27 Feb 2005, 00:26:08
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Posts: 127
Joined: 24 Dec 2001
Location: NE Oklahoma
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Pete:
According to Classic
Trains "Streamliner Pioneers" the consist until at least 1954 was as
follows:
Baggage, Sleeper, Sleeper, Bar Lounge-Dormitory,
Diner, Sleeper, Sleeper, Observation Lounge-Sleeper. I don't
think the Chief ever had extra cars but I could be
incorrect.
The consist was pulled by two E-1 diesels, A and
B.
Richard
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petermccue |
Posted: 27 Feb 2005, 01:47:01
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Posts: 13
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Location: Central IL--USA
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Thanks, Richard.
I was fairly
certain there had to be more than the two sleepers listed. If you
figure 2 people per section/compartment/drawing room, one 10-6 and
one 4-4-2 would only be 52 passengers. I'm sure there were more than
that, probably 2 to 3 times that number.
At some point, I
thought in the late 40s or early 50s, the Super Chief used F-3s for
power. I know the F-7s were used later on, but I'm not sure when
they were assigned to the Super Chief.
It's tough arguing
with an authority like "Streamliner Pioneers", but I also can't
understand Walthers putting out a set of cars and locomotives at the
price being asked if they were the incorrect power or car for the
train. That's been my problem with the research--few sources and
conflicting information. One of my sources claims the consist was 4
or 5 of the newest passenger F-7s, baggage, RPO, 10-6, 10-6, 4-4-2,
dome, diner, dorm/lounge, 4-4-2, 4-4-2, 10-6, observation. Using the
same estimate for occupancy would require at least 4 sittings per
meal for a 36 seat diner, and a few passengers eating in their
rooms. I know 2 sittings were common, and believe 3 were also normal
on longer distance trains, but I can't find anything about 4 or 5
sittings per meal. Guestimating 45 minutes per sitting would take at
least 3 hours per meal if everything moved along and people didn't
sit and talk. It would seem more reasonable to figure 4 hours to
allow for clean-up and set-up. I also have a video on the Super
Chief that has an interview with a former chef. He maintains the
famous French Toast took 45 minutes to cook properly, and there were
no shortcuts. I know it's breakfast, but that will shoot a scheduled
meal sitting right out the window unless you allow at least 1 hour
15 minutes per sitting. You just know someone's going to sip coffee
and read the paper!!
I believe you're right in extra cars not
being used. If they were, I'll bet it was only rarely.
Thanks
again for your help.
Pete |
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passengerfan |
Posted: 27 Feb 2005, 08:27:48
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Posts: 528
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: Central Valley
California
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The Super Chief was completely
re-equipped in 1950-51 except for the VISTA Series 4-Drawing Room
1-Double Bedroom Lounge Observations. At that time the Super Chief
was assigned a Baggage Car , 60'RPO, 10-6 Sleeper Palm or Pine
series, 10-6 Sleeper Palm or Pine Series, 4-2-4 Regal Series
sleeper, 600 series 36-seat dining Car, 500 series Pleasure Dome,
4-4-2 Regal Serties Sleeper, 10-6 Pine or Palm series sleeper, and
Vista Series Sleeper Lounge Observation. When the train was
particularly busy it was not unusual to find a Blue series 10-2-3
operating as an extra sleeper ahead of the Obs. Hope this helps.
Power was from the pool and was usually A-B-B-A sets of F7 or F-3 or
combinations. All Santa Fe Passenger F-3 units were brought up to
F-7 standards and were not easy to tell apart except by
numbers. |
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passengerfan |
Posted: 27 Feb 2005, 08:33:45
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Posts: 528
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: Central Valley
California
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Missed two cars the Baggage Crew
Dormitory trailed the RPO and the Pleasure Dome was ahead of the
diner in the consist. During peak travel times such as Xmas and the
peak summer travel an extra 4-2-4 and and 10-3-2 were carried. The
Baggage Crew Dormitory replaced the Baggage. |
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richardy |
Posted: 28 Feb 2005, 00:10:13
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Posts: 127
Joined: 24 Dec 2001
Location: NE Oklahoma
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Pete:
I found some
information and an undated picture of the SC. The original consist I
spoke of above carried 104 manifest passengers not including train
crew. The picture is a much larger train and has four F units
A-B-B-A pulling at least 13 cars, I cannot see the end since the
train curves around a mountain. A baggage car is up front followed
by the RPO then sleepers, the first sleeper behind the RPO is blue.
The rest of the visable consist is stainless, the Pleasure Dome is
the 8th car from the headend. This train was not carrying the
Baggage Crew Dormitory that passengerfan spoke of
above.
Richard
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passengerfan |
Posted: 28 Feb 2005, 08:25:30
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Posts: 528
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Location: Central Valley
California
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Absolutely correct Richard I have
two pages of info on the SUPER CHIEF and EL CAP together, must have
been looking at both at the same time. The Baggage Crew Dorm was on
the El Cap and the dining car crew of the Super Chief was carried in
a Dormitory Club Lounge Car located to the rear of the dining car.
These cars were Santa Fe 1390 - 1395. Thx |
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fiverings |
Posted: 28 Feb 2005, 08:39:06
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Posts: 315
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: USA
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The post-WWII Super Chief was
assigned baggage-dormitory cars only briefly. Such cars were
assigned only from 1948 until the dome-lounges were delivered in
1950. The train also used Budd lounge-dormitories (series 1390-95)
from 1948 until those cars were replaced by the Pullman-Standard
lounge-dormitories (series 1339-44) in 1950 (these are the cars
modeled by Walthers).
The initial streamlined Super Chief of
1937 had a lounge-dormitory ("Acoma" #1370). This car was
supplemented in 1938 with baggage-dormitory-lounge "San Clemente"
#1386. The second Super Chief consist, delivered in 1938, also had a
lounge-dormitory, "Agathla" #1377 and a baggage-dormitory-lounge,
"San Acacia" #1387.
This post has been edited by
fiverings on 29 Mar 2005, 10:19:01 |
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timz |
Posted: 28 Feb 2005, 17:47:00
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Posts: 23
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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In January 1954 the Chief started
leaving Chicago at 0900, so it couldn't take the thru cars from NY
(and Washington?) any more-- so the Super got them for a few years.
Dunno if they used PRR/NYC sleepers, tho. |
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fiverings |
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 09:40:45
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Posts: 315
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Location: USA
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Timz makes a good point about the
transcontinental sleepers. As of January 1953, there were still 4
daily transcontinental sleepers on the Chief: a Washington-San Diego
10-6 (via B&O east of Chicago), a New York City-Los Angeles
4-4-2 (via PRR east of Chicago), and a New York City-Los Angeles
4-4-2 and 10-6 (via NYC east of Chicago).
I believe the
Washington line was the first to be discontinued, but don't know
exactly when. The PRR line continued until 1957, but PRR's two-tone
gray 4-4-2's were withdrawn when the switch was made to the Super
Chief (thereafter, only ATSF "Regal" sleepers were regularly
assigned to protect this assignement).
The NYC through
sleeper line continued until early 1958, but I can't say which, if
any, NYC cars protected this service after the switch to the
Super.
Since most of the cars assigned to transcontinental
service on these lines were ATSF, it's safe to represent any of them
with ATSF models (and commensurately difficult to pick out
transcontinental sleepers in photos of the Super Chief from that
era).
And, looking through photos of the Chief in the late
'40s, I was reminded that streamlined baggage-dormitory-lounge cars
were reassigned from the Chief to the Super Chief in 1948, whereupon
heavyweight cars of similar configuration (some in silver
shadowlined paint) were placed in the Chief's consists. The
streamlined cars went back to th Chief when the dome lounges arrived
for the Super Chief in 1950. |
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timz |
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 17:09:08
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Posts: 23
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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The 4/57 timetable still shows all
four East Coast cars. |
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petermccue |
Posted: 01 Mar 2005, 23:04:32
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Posts: 13
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Location: Central IL--USA
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Thanks to one and all for the
helpful information. One of the more complete descriptions was the
information on the “Railfan” web site: http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=ATSF;action=display;num=1081891703There
were excellent comments on the Classic Trains Forums, the Model
Railroad General Discussion Forum, and the Model Railroad Prototype
Forum. I’m posting this to all three so that no one will miss the
link above. I’ve also “distilled” the various posts in the Railfan
Forum—there were some comments by others in the middle of Norm
Anderson’s post, and he had to post the original message in several
parts—so I’ve reduced it to his full story and his list of reference
material. If anyone is interested, please send me an e-mail, and I
will reply with the story as an attachment. It prints out to nine
(9) pages. I’ve chosen to concentrate on the consist used
from 1951-1956. After 1956, the Super Chief and the El Capitan were
combined, and some of the eastern cars were added. Here is basically
the consist as Norm presented it: “INTO THE
'50s... Just three years later (the 1948 equipment likely
hadn't even been paid-off yet!) Santa Fe decided to again re-equip
the Super Chief with brand-new equipment. The big news for this 1951
upgrade was the arrival of six "Turquoise Room/Pleasure Dome Lounge
Cars" from Pullman-Standard. For nearly four years, these would be
the only Domes into Los Angeles. Unlike most Domes before and since,
which offered two-and-two seating in the upstairs Dome area, the
Pleasure domes provided extra-wide, swiveling individual seats under
glass. This Parlor-Car approach to Dome seating was unique to these
six cars. Downstairs, the cars contained a main lounge area in the
"long end", a serving bar in the "step-down" area underneath the
Dome, and even boasted a private dining room (billed as "The
Turquoise Room") which could be reserved in advance for private
dinner parties of up to twelve guests. Pullman-Standard also
provided seven companion Diners for this service. Over the next
twenty years, right up to the advent of Amtrak in 1971, these Diners
(Nos. 600 - 606) were paired with the Pleasure Domes, and were
never, ever assigned to any other Santa Fe service. Operationally,
the Pleasure Domes were run "long-end-forward", so that the
Turquoise Room in the "short end" would be positioned right next to
the Diner, which was operated
"kitchen-forward". "Typical" Super Chief Consist, 1951 -
1956 38L EMD F-7A Locomotive [Number Boards read "38"] 38A
EMD F-7B Locomotive 38B EMD F-7B Locomotive 38C EMD F-7A
Locomotive [Number Boards read "38C"] 3415 Baggage Car 83
Railway Post Office 1385 San Pascal Baggage/Barber Shop/Buffet
Lounge Car Palm Top Sleeping Car-- (10 Roomettes, 6 Double
Bedrooms) Pine Arroyo Sleeping Car-- (10 Roomettes, 6 Double
bedrooms) Regal Corps Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2 Drawing
Rooms, 4 double Bedrooms) 502 Turquoise Room/Pleasure Dome Lounge
Car 605 Fred Harvey Dining Car 1395 Dormitory/Club Lounge
Car Regal Hunt Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2 Drawing Rooms, 4
Double Bedrooms) Regal Manor Sleeping Car-- (4 Compartments, 2
Drawing Rooms, 4 double Bedrooms) Palm Lore Sleeping Car-- (10
Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms) Vista Club Observation Lounge Car--
(4 Drawing Rooms, 1 Double Bedroom) This would be the last
major upgrade for the Super Chief, and likely represents the
high-water-mark for this service. Indeed, the six Pleasure domes and
seven companion Diners would be the last new equipment delivered to
Santa Fe by Pullman-Standard, although ACF and Budd would continue
to supply new cars into 1964.” I realize this post is a
little longer than I had planned, but I thought you might enjoy
Norm’s commentary on that period as well as the consist. Again,
thanks to all of you who were so helpful. I’m constantly amazed at
the vast sources of information all of you possess. You remind me
how much I have to learn. Pete |
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timz |
Posted: 02 Mar 2005, 12:29:29
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Posts: 23
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
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"After 1956, the Super Chief and the
El Capitan were combined"
As I recall, it was January
1958.
And like I said, the four East Coast cars appeared on
the Super in 1/54. |
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SILVERCHAMPION |
Posted: 11 Mar 2005, 20:46:30
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Posts: 356
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
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IF you can find it. A book called
Some Classic Trains. It has great pictures and the history of the
train |
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B360763 |
Posted: 29 Mar 2005, 23:31:16
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Posts: 3
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Location: In the Panhandle
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As to the F-units . . . Santa Fe
kept its passenger and freight F3 and F7 units in the original
numerically matched sets most of the time until about 1960,
when they were broken up into individual units. Thus, when an
A-B-B-A of F3's or F7's was used, one cab (the L unit) displayed the
engine number in its number boards, while the other cab (the C unit)
displayed the same number and the C suffix in its number boards. The
engines were usually turned at each end of the run until the
mid-1950's, after which the C unit often was the lead unit. On the
transcontinental trains, the pilots received a fresh coat of paint
every trip.
But back to the F7's and the Super Chief . . .
Santa Fe bought three configurations: 1 the 4-unit sets with
2-digit numbers 2 the 3-unit A-B-B bobtails in 300-Class (100
MPH) and 325-Class (80 MPH) 3 A couple of bobtail A-B sets for
short trains and to fill in for units receiving unscheduled repairs.
The
300-Class bobtails were standard on the Super Chief from 1949 to
1951. |
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drephpe |
Posted: 30 Mar 2005, 17:45:00
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Posts: 558
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Texas, when not on an
airplane
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And don't forget, modelers, ATSF had
no boilers in the F series A units, so they always were on a
passenger train with at least one B unit, which did have a
boiler.
Use of a B unit in a consist of Fs was essential even
in summer, since ATSF used predominately steam ejector air
conditioning on its LW cars, which requires a constant source of
steam in order to air condition the cars.
ATSF pax trains
pulled by a single F unit, even if only 1-2 cars, is not
prototypical and would not have been done except in the gravest
emergency. |
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Mr.
Frank |
Posted: 09 Apr 2005, 15:53:11
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Posts: 43
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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Peter - There is a great
website for Santa Fe information, including passenger trains - http://www.qstation.org/ - once you get to the
home page, select the "ATSF Resources" section - and keep scrolling
down until you see the topic "Super Chief consists." There are
sample consists for 1953, 1957, 159-1962, and 1962-1964. Note that
for the summers of 1962-1964, not only did the Super and El Cap run
separately, but on Mondays and Thursdays for those three summers,
there were actually three scheduled sections departing from Chicago
and Los Angeles on those days of the week - you basically had the
following three sections running on each others' "clear blocks" - or
only minutes apart: 1) Super Chief - sleeping car section with
pleasure dome and 600 series diners; 2) Super Chief - single level
44-seat coach section with lunch counter diner; and 3) El Capitan
with Hi-level equipment. Anyway, I understand your focus is
on the 1950's - In the summer of 1957 (I believe the Super and El
Cap were combined in the off searsons beginning on Jan. 12, 1958),
the Super typically ran about 13-14 cars. Also keep in mind that for
many years, and RPO and a 10-6 sleeper were usually added to the
Super westbound from Kansas City, and cut out on eastbound #18 at
KC. Hope this helps. |
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SILVERCHAMPION |
Posted: 25 May 2005, 09:55:22
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Posts: 356
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: Southeast Pennsylvania
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I think that you are right about the
Super Chief and I don't think that there was more than one diner on
the train. I would like to know if the Super Chief and the Chief is
the same train. |
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CSSHEGEWISCH |
Posted: 25 May 2005, 12:48:35
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Posts: 1130
Joined: 21 Dec 2001
Location: US
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Super Chief was #'s 17-18 and ran
into the Amtrak era. It was originally weekly train, later upped to
bi-weekly then daily.
The Chief was #19-20 and was
discontinued in 1969. It always ran daily and was an all-Pullman
train until the Super Chief went to daily operation. |
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ZephyrOverland |
Posted: 26 May 2005, 08:45:58
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Posts: 33
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Location: Ex Chicagoan now in Ft.
Lauderdale
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QUOTE: Originally posted by
CSSHEGEWISCH
Super Chief was #'s 17-18 and ran into the
Amtrak era. It was originally weekly train, later upped to
bi-weekly then daily.
The Chief was #19-20 and was
discontinued in 1969. It always ran daily and was an all-Pullman
train until the Super Chief went to daily
operation.
Actually, the Chief was
discontinued in 1968 and it was operated as an All-Pullman
opertation until 1954. The Super Chief became a daily train in
1948. |
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